Hobbyist Science – LENR Part 2
| November 5, 2012 | Posted by admin under Hobbyist LENR |
In a post yesterday, I introduced the idea of using an Android controlled programmable controller for exploring electrolysis heat production. I am presenting another chart here from an experiment that was run today for a longer length of time.
The notion is to demonstrate a technique for detecting high levels of anomalous excess heat with a minimal number of measures.
The idea here is to run multiple experimental runs (one for each individual component) and to compare the component results with the combined result.
It is quite simple to predict what would be expected to happen from standard theory. If one component produces a certain amount of change in temperature, and another component produces a different amount of change in temperature, then combining the two components by alternating back and forth between them should produce a temperature change somewhere in between the temperature changes of the separate components. Since we are alternating back and forth between components, we avoid synergistic or additive effects.
In the following experiment I ran the following procedure.
A – 12VDC ~.4amp for 30 minutes and allow cell to cool within 10 degrees F of the ambient temperature.
B – 12VDC ~.4amp for 30 minutes and allow cell to cool within 10 degrees F of the ambient temperature.
C – 9VAC ~.5amp for 30 minutes and allow cell to cool within 10 degrees F of the ambient temperature.
D – 12VDC for 60 seconds, 9VAC for 30 seconds. These currents alternate back and forth throughout the 30 minute period. Allow to cool to within 10 degrees of ambient.
You will notice that I repeat the A run for B. This is to develop an elevated baseline for the B, C, and D runs of ~+10F.
If alternating between AC and DC currents triggers AHE (anomalous heat effect), then change in temperatures for run D should be higher than the individual components of C and B. I outlined this in the previous presentation, but the longer run produced a chart that clearly exemplifies the absence of excess heating. The purple line for D falls in between the lines for C and B.
Notes:
1. I am still seeing unusual temperature spikes and dips with runs using DC current. There seems to be some kind of interference with the temperature sensor.
2. Electrode composition (cathode – 8 standard US nickels connected together with a small rod of thoriated tungsten; anode – 4 stainless steel washers).
Your cathode should be a thin wire & your anode should be a tube around it.
Forget electrolysis; use an organic acid that can handle high voltage.
Maximize the field on the surface of the cathode & irradiate with a wavelength appropriate to elevate the metallic hydrogen’s electron to a 2p orbital.
Use that nickel wire; it’s a good idea.
Good luck.
As low a pH as possible; and i think, the way it works, you want as big a tube as is reasonable: kind of backwards but, i think that’s how it works.
The electrolysis of water is a side reaction.
If it can be avoided, current draw & hence power input can be minimized.
Thanks for the ideas Jeff. I’m thinking of like a stainless steel tube with the nitinol wire. Are you suggesting to resonate with RF or high frequency AC current?
I’m afraid it’s not that easy.
The idea is to get the electron as close to the nucleus as possible in order to cloak the positive charge of the proton; to get it as close as possible to the nickel nucleus.
For that, the electron should be in the 2p orbital.
I was looking at the Lymann emission series?
The required freq. is around the ultraviolet!
Maybe i’m way off; there’s hopefully an easier way.
What pH & what’s your source of H+? I’m guessing 7 & none?
Phenol comes to mind as a dielectric but; it’s poison.
I’ve got some 1/2″ stainless tubing; where in the world are you?
Anybody interested in doing the math regarding pressure exerted by H+ in electric field on electrode surface for various geometries?
Actually, a sphere in a sphere is better than a wire in a cylinder.
Actually, i would really appreciate a cohort wrt these calculations.
The assumption is that, because of superposition, we can consider the diffusion of various species independently; if that’s not a reasonable assumption then; nuff said, you have my apologies & i will leave.
If it IS reasonable then we can treat H+ in an electric field as though it were a mass in a gravitational field. Can we continue?
Nice work admin, this is a good read for this morning.
Yes, excellent work.
Happy to help any way i can.
Jeff, I’ve not yet tested pH. And you are correct that I am also probably not getting any H+.
I’m running 1 maybe 2 more experiments with the current setup, and then I’ll switch. I re-read Robert Godes patent application, and he suggests a duty cycle for the loading current of at least 80%. I’m running a longer experiment now with multiple duty cycles and have made predictions for all conditions based on the presence of no AHE vs. AHE. I figure I’ll have the best chance of seeing something on this one vs. any previous runs, but still unlikely. That said, I’ve developed a new design for the runs, which will be beneficial in the future.
If you use acid as you suggest, where with the hydrogen be coming from?
I am in Illinois.
I agree that a sphere in a sphere would be better. Nickel foam in a stainless tube might be even better than that.
I’m using Borax as the electrolyte for now as suggested as a possibility by Chuck Sites on the Vortex list. I’ve since learned about Melvin Miles research that shows that boriding the metal slows hydrogen from de-loading and leads to faster AHE.
This is relevant: http://www.scribd.com/doc/53608555/3/Activation-of-Molecular-Hydrogen
Assuming the incorporation of monatomic hydrogen from acidic solution, the goal would be to avoid the formation of molecular hydrogen to prevent de-loading.
& nickel foam sounds like a good idea. I was thinking square or triangular wire instead of round, to maximize electric field.
I think maintaining an electric field of the highest possible magnitude would be best to prevent de-loading.
Start with a strong acid if possible.
I’ve copied this: “Nickel dissolves slowly in dilute acids but, like iron, becomes passive when treated with nitric acid.”
from: Read more: http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/ni.htm#ixzz2BVJTfiDa
Any idea what “passive” means in this context? I imagine it’s bad.
I haven’t examined electrolysis any myself but, i am curious how the voltages & currents work just to turn the process on: I imagine the best would be a DC offset of 1/2 AC peak + minimum turn on voltage? AC freq in the microwave range?
Any info would be appreciated, thanks.
Hi Jeff,
Let me look into this some more when I get some more time. At work presently. I can also describe more about what happens with the electrolysis.
Jeff,
Using DC current with electrolysis splits the water into H2 and O. The H2 is produced at the Cathode (+) and the O is produced at the Anode (-). Over time with certain metals, the hydrogen loads into the metal lattice. According to previous research, once the loading reaches a high enough level, the chances for LENR to take place are increased. This is only one necessary condition. If you search youtube for Edmund Storms, you can learn about some of the other conditions needed.
Anyway, Robert Godes of Brillouin Energy says that you can get the effect with very high frequency AC and DC loading current. The DC loading current has to be at >80% of the duty cycle. He claims to tune in to the “resonant frequency” of the nickel lattice to induce changes in the phonon vibrations of the lattice.
My thinking was that just maybe regular AC current could induce the effect to some extent when alternated with DC loading current to load the hydrogen into the cathode.
I am currently running experiments to test this out, and want to make sure I approach it from as many angles as I can think of before presenting the results. I should have something by the weekend or perhaps the first of next week. My current experiments take about 30 hrs to complete.
Just a bit of difficulty with terms.
Cathode is negative, i think:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water
But i see there’s room for ambiguity.
You say “The DC loading current has to be at >80% of the duty cycle.” I’m not getting that; you’re saying the DC current has to be >80% of what? I see electrolysis requires about 2 volts? AC component would be offset by 1/2 peak-to-peak + about 2 volts? Presumably a 50% duty cycle? I’m missing your point; i see current density is relevant; what is the loading current & area of your nickel?
Here’s some info about a natural freq for Ni: http://bethesignal.net/blog/?p=234 there’s something at about 2.55 GHz.
This one: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html#r805 discusses water absorption spectra. There’s something relevant at 98.36 THz.
Somehow, i don’t think 60 Hz is gonna do it. If you can get up to MHz with a sharp edge you might get something? I dunno.
I’m thinking of cathode in standard notation. It is hooked to the positive terminal (but electrons are flowing from the positive terminal). But I think you are right that it is typically referred to as negative.
By 80% of the duty cycle, I mean that the current is flowing in the direction to produce hydrogen at the cathode. So part of the time when on AC it would be loading. As you probably noted, 50% (likely less) of AC current would actually be loading. So you would need alternate with DC enough to get the loading current flowing at over 80% of the time. Otherwise, presumably, you don’t get enough hydrogen loading in the nickel to be able to trigger a reaction.
I wanted to go ahead and try standard AC 60hz just to test my setup and on the off chance that I would see something. Thanks for the links to the natural frequency info.
Kudos for doing *something.*
I think i get the picture now.
Can i suggest a simple modification that might also be worth the effort? A UV light irradiating the cathode with a photoreceptor to measure energy influx might help initiate an AHE. In the theory i see mention of screening by d orbital electrons in the nickel; stimulating a 2p orbital in H might be on.
Can you hook your power supplies in series? Try to get the voltage to 12 VDC + 9 VAC; minimum voltage 3V max 21V; no opportunity to unload metallic H.
See how acidic you can make it & still have some reasonable lifespan; avoiding osmotic tension of H+ in dielectric will help, i think.
Thanks for hearing.
Oops, yes you are correct. Cathode is (-) and anode is (+). That’s how I’ve had it hooked up, but got it switched around in my mind at some point.
Admin on your “yo yo” board with the relays do you have any diodes going from the negative lead at the coil teed into the conductor with the – side soldered to the dc supply -. if there is not a battery or dc supply you will also need a capacitor.
Close trip cycles on the relay coils can add a nasty environment for the sensors.
There is a very unique way to dampen the entire system should you need any schematics of a proposed system do not hesitate to post. I will answer to the best of my experinces that has taught me.
Good call; inductors can be nasty.
Hi Dale,
Yes, I’d be interested in the circuit you describe.
From what I can tell, it is something that is happening within the cell (for the major spikes and dips). It doesn’t do that with the sensor out of the cell. It would be nice to dampen the minor spikes and dips which are constant.
I don’t have the extremely smooth lines on the graph like the Celani replication folks are getting. It could be a limitation of the sensors too.
I will send you a couple opto 22′s 1.3vdc input to AC 240 or the Crydom opto isolators If you would like. I have several hundred of those and I use them in medical control circuitry because they are UL and CSE certified already.
If you use your own make up circuit I would use a PN222 connected to a TIP30A think that’s the PNP to drive those small relays, but when I have large solenoids I also use a 2N3773 in a TO3 case. I will draft up a circuit that works well with fast oscillating circuits using solenoids and relay coils. You should be running an NPN for the actual coil relays. I will send a quick drawing on a circuit I have tested into the kHz range and has lasted for 20+ years on a prototype garlic harvester we built years ago.
I have since used the design for many oscillating solenoid coils with a high rate of change in Hz on the coils.
Dale, I would be very interested to try those out.
Thinking about it, the ideal cathode would have a thin layer of fusible material (nickel) around an n-doped semiconductor core; so the monatomic hydrogen has nowhere to go.
That is supposed to be a 2N3772 TO3 case not a 2N3773.
Jeff, I think the UV is worth a try. I suspect a UV laser might be the best. Do you have any suggestions for a UV light?
I’m afraid the power supplies would burn out if I hook them up in series, but that would be interesting to be able to combine the two.
Lymann alpha is about 121 nm. I took a quick look & see UV LEDs @ about 300 nm.
I think it *must* be 121 nm photons booting around but, i’m far from sure; maybe if you go for something about 484 nm?
UV-C gemicidal is 254nm; probably not too expensive.
Maybe if you hook the positive of your DC to ground & the negative to the cathode; then you can hook you ac neutral to ground & your hot to the anode? That should work.
Something else that might be helpful: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html
The anode/cathode arrangement will make a capacitor; i get ballpark 100pF so maybe a small inductor (on the order of pH) as close to the cathode as possible. It would have to be tuned; tunability would be a plus. But, that’s for another day.
I figured out the problem with the temperature spikes and dips. It was the DC power supply. I replaced it with a different one, and now the temp values are running smooth.
Just a comment on resonance and the electrical and magnetic field mediums.
A man named Don Estes in LA California has the most valuable data relating to the frequencies and resonance.
He uses a supercomputer linked to calculate a resonance for any given set of frequencies. I have been there and watched his stuff. Remarkable what resonance can do. The place is called Harmonic Resolution and deals with high frequency calculations. If you contact him let him know I sent you.
You sir, are an inspiration.
I did electrolysis when i was 12 or so, mid 70s; it was a blast, literally.
Now i realize i have a p-doped silicon wafer; 1-0-0. I have lots of other stuff too; i think i might move forward.
What’s the best way to cut a wafer? It’s been etched so, i’ll have to polish off the die to get to the silicon. The i’ll plate some nickel on there; any suggestions on the best nickel salt to plate with?
I think i’ll glue thermocouples directly to the silicon cathode at various places. Do you think that might work, avoid the calorimeter approach?
I guess i’ll need small cheap thermocouples; any suggestions?
Maybe use a dremmel to cut the wafer?
I’m using temperature sensors from Atlas Scientific. They run off of a 3-5V supply and generate a voltage of <3V that you can read with an IO board. With programming, you convert that voltage to the temperature using a formula.
I like the sensors because they are designed to operate in highly variable environments (corrosive, acidic, alkalinity, and so forth).
If you have your thermocouple right on the cathode, you might be reading more of the temp of the cathode rather than the solution. I think that would be interesting, but it might be hard to find something that can be submerged.
The sensors are $18.
Another problem you can run into with submerged thermocouples is that they may be physically altered by being in the cell (electroplating, chemical reactions, and so forth). I started out with a candy thermometer, which was rendered useless after being in a running cell for a few days. The temp reading was permanently altered to +20 of the actual temperature. I’ve not had that problem with the new sensors.
I’ll plate one side with nickel & use the gold plated side to glue the thermocouple to & then insulate with epoxy.
I can get 5 thermocouples for $18 but, i’ll need signal conditioning… this is exciting.
It is very exciting, and I’m looking forward to hearing about your work and results. I’m glad that others are becoming more interested, and I don’t see any reason that this can’t eventually be accomplished in the home lab. It’s really just a matter of staying objective and making the experiments prove the effect.
My approach has been to take every result that looks promising and assume that there is another explanation besides LENR. Then conduct experiments to test alternative hypotheses. So far, I had one promising result that appeared to demonstrate anomalous heating. I presumed that this was false, and conducted additional experiments that convinced me that it was indeed false.
I am gratified with negative results because I am generating methods for detecting anomalous heating based on predictions of what we should see if there is no AHE. With the exception of the one experiment, all results have clearly demonstrated no AHE consistent with predictions. The one false-positive for AHE allowed me to further refine my methods and setup to eliminate this particular type of false positive.
I’ll present more of these methods soon, once I get a chance to write it up.
I’m looking forward to hearing more results.
Having broken the wafer twice already, it seems clear etching and then snapping would work best.
Any idea where one might get nickel sulfamate? Plating will be my first step; i think i’ll do some wire while i’m at it.
Might be able to find some on ebay or http://www.americanelements.com/.
Thanks, i’ll check.
I just had a great idea; use the small magnetic balls for cathodes:
http://apexmagnets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5
Attach the electrode on the equator & epoxy that half. Use a stainless steel salad bowl for the anode.
Whaddayathink?
Interesting idea. With the salad bowl, you might have too much surface area and end up blowing out your power supply. You’d just have to give it a try and see what happens. Some use like metal wool or foil.
I wonder if you could plate those magnets with nickel?
They’re actually supplied nickel plated!
I realize i have some stainless steel screen i can shape into whatever i like. Also, i have disc shaped & cylindrical magnets of various sizes; a sampler set i got cuz i love magnets. I’m gluing some wire to one as i type.
So, JB weld makes a good insulator; soldering works for attaching a wire to the magnet. I’ve used JB weld to insulate the connection & expose a small surface of the magnet.
I’m gonna look for anomalous stoichiometric relationships; it’s much easier.
If you have some time, could you explain a little about what you mean by anomalous stoichiometric relationships?
By the way, my voltage sensors should be here any time now. I’m measuring current already, but this will allow me to get a full measure of power put into the system.
Glad you got the wire attached to the magnet and that it is already nickel plated! I wonder what would happen if you had a bunch of tiny nickel plated magnetic spheres in a hydrogen-filled chamber agitated by changing EM fields and a spark plug to produce atomic hydrogen.
BTW, our discussion about light waves may have some merit. I found an old paper by McKubre from 2003 that talked about an experiment using a red laser with palladium and deuterium that produced substantial excess heating. I took a laser diode out of an old CD ROM drive, but the contacts were too small to solder. I’ve got some more drives laying around that are hopefully a little easier to work with. I’d like to just shine the laser through the glass onto the side of the cell onto the nickel.
Here’s one that got excess heat in 4/5 experiments with laser triggering.
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ViolanteVprogressina.pdf
Here’s another:
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/TianJexcessheatb.pdf
Interesting links but, why 532nm; just cuz it’s easy?
I’m thinking of first trying two stainless electrodes in pickling vinegar. I expect no current until electrolysis starts; & that the amount of H2 produced should be directly proportional to the total charge having flowed through the cell. Also, i should get twice the volume of H2 as of O2. I’ll see how that goes & then use the nickel as the cathode instead of stainless. If the cathode loads with monatomic hydrogen, i should see it…. maybe i’ll do some cals first to see if i should see it. I’m not trying to produce H2 so, maybe it has a chance.
The links you provide give a ballpark for hydrogen loading too; excellent!
Not enough nickel, i think.
Maybe with the silicon wafer…?
Is the electrolysis not working well? I think it may not do well with vinegar. You can try distilled water with some baking soda or washing soda mixed in.
Well, i never got to it.
Lots of obstacles (not enough nickel on the magnet, et al) &, there’s something a bit easier that i can get to.
One thing i did notice; the stuff in the literature that seems replicable uses deuterium, universally. Toyota just did one; transmutation is observed using palladium (maybe it was platinum) & deuterium. But forget that, wire in a tube with high frequency square wave driving hydrogen ions into the cathode; that’s the way to do it.